Today is also on those who “couldn’t vote for her.” A Facebook conversation.

The following could be called “a Facebook conversation.”

It happened on a closed group, so I won’t name names. For some reason, Facebook wouldn’t let me post it, saying, “Sorry, there’s a temporary problem with this post. Please try again in a few moments.”

I’m posting it here so that my discussion partner and others may see it.

His comments are the numbered statements. My responses follow each one. At the bottom is the prior Facebook post that prompted his responses.

The whole conversation, as you might suspect, is much more involved than this and included others; however, short of copying in every single Comment, I think this will give anyone reading it an appreciation for what is being discussed and where agreements and disagreements still remain 7 months after the election.

The post that started it all was a one-line post I made to the group on the day Trump announced he was pulling America out of the Paris Agreement.

It simply read….

Today is also on those who “couldn’t vote for her.”


Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. Please allow me to offer more of mine on each of the points you’ve listed.

1. I’m not a “Hillary Hater”.
Good to know. Neither am I. For the record, I didn’t say you were one.

2. I did not vote for Stein.
Neither did I. I voted for Clinton after voting for Sanders in the closed PA primary. May I ask, are you an American citizen? If so, for whom did you vote, and do you live in one of the battleground states? You don’t have to say, of course. I’m just curious about the person with whom I’m having this discussion.

3. Clinton was the party’s clear favourite as the leaked emails illuminate and as is further clarified by the current lawsuit.

Yes, she was the favorite of the Party leadership AND the membership. The primaries proved that, too.

And as I tried to explain above, why is that surprising? Even better to ask is why is that such a big issue? Clinton was a life-long Democrat. Sanders was NEVER a Democrat until it suited his purposes. He took advantage of the system and the Party to run as a Democrat.

Why then is it so surprising and disconcerting that actual Democrats would prefer Clinton over him?

Not that this matters either way, but Jill Stein sure seems to me to be the Green Party’s anointed one. I have yet to see anyone complain about how she seemed to be the only one getting any air time, support, and attention. Nor have I seen one word of criticism about the Green Party rules for narrowing the field of candidates from which their party members get to choose.

I found 10-1.2 and 10-2.1 worth particular attention.

This whole issue of favoritism smells like a long-dead red herring to me. Of course any Party’s leadership will have favorites. Some favorites may just not be yours or mine.

And, finally, it must be said that it’s not like the Democratic Party was foisting someone upon the rank-and-file who had no experience and no qualifications to be president.

Sanders was my first choice. When he lost – and even before he exhorted his followers to vote for Clinton – my mind was easily made up as to whom would be the better choice to become President. Bernie said it, too. That should have been enough for everyone.

 

4. Sanders lost but the system is not open to independents – as everyone knows – and he continues to (correctly, in my view) push to open the Dem primaries to independents.

I disagree. It *is* open to independents. He and I are proof of that. All you need to do is to become a member. He and I both did that. It’s not really asking all that much, and party affiliation and registration can always be changed back.

Open primaries are a mistake, in my opinion. I no more want Republicans influencing the Democratic Party’s choice for candidate than they want me influencing theirs. I believe that’s a real possibility in safely blue and red states and especially after events like Super Tuesday and as the primaries progress and the writing tends to be on the wall more and more for who will win.

Besides, I just don’t like the idea that someone who isn’t a member has a say in what any organization does. I don’t get to vote for Apple’s board if I don’t own shares. I don’t get to vote for the mayor of the next town over from mine. I don’t get to tell the Kiwanis what to do, and people who are not members of political parties should not get a vote for which candidate will represent it.

Want a say in who will run as a Democrat or a Republican? No problem. Join the Party.

One last point on this. If I’m not mistaken, it’s the Party leadership state-by-state that decides by what process they will choose delegates, how those delegates will be apportioned, and then it’s the national convention in which the candidate is chosen.

If they let me make the rules, the first thing I’d do is to do away with caucuses completely. Talk about your archaic and elitist way to make decisions. How many poor people working multiple jobs and counting on public transportation can spend entire mornings and afternoons debating their neighbors to come to some conclusion that isn’t even really a vote? I’d make closed primaries the rule, and they all would be held on the same day. That day and election day would be mandatory federal holidays in which every business (with exceptions for public safety) would be required to be closed or to give employees paid time off to vote.

 

5. I do not and have never claimed that you or anyone else is “bullying” those who chose not to vote for whomever. My claim is that you are simply wasting time as it is irrelevant.

I’m glad you don’t feel bullied, and it’s my time to use however I like.

 

6. The Dems claim to be running a ’50 state strategy’ but have missed opportunities to make significant inroads in Kansas and Montana. The idea that they want to simply focus on a small percentage of traditional Dem voters is a strategy that misses the current opportunity and… Once again… shows a disengagement with the current reality of American society, the almost violent dissatisfaction among Republicans (as witnessed in recent town halls) and the overlapping interests of those who are conveniently labelled ‘left’ and ‘right’. Playing to the traditional ‘base’ is simply ‘politics as usual’. We need something more that that right now.

I don’t disagree with you. I was just giving you my opinion about what their strategy might be.

As I see them, political strategies are about winning elections. Period. Today, and sadly only for the president, that’s about the Electoral College. Talk about another archaic institution that needs to be trashed. If this wasn’t the election it was designed to guard against, I don’t know what one is.

Again, this is just me, but I sincerely doubt that very many Democratic strategists are investing a lot of effort in figuring out how to win blood red states like Montana (3 EC) and Kansas (6 EC). Yes, let’s hope voters in the center of the country start coming to their senses about the GOP, but I don’t look for the Democrats to spend any more time at the national level trying to win them over when they lost the presidency by 78,000 or so votes in PA, MI, and WI.

Here’s part of what I base this on. It’s my Congressional District. The Democrats haven’t even bothered to field a candidate to run against my Republican House Rep in the last two elections, and I live in Pennsyltucky.

I think we’re going to be waiting a long time before you see any significant Democratic investment of time and treasure in the blood red states.

 

8. I’m not ‘upset’ about your post. Once again, blaming the nearly 150 million people who did not feel impelled to vote for Hillary is missing the damn point and is, in fact, a continuation of the thinking that got you Trump in the first place. People are fed up with politics as usual. These times must be met with vision and creativity. The ay forward could not be clearer… See the recent election in Britain for reference. ‘Don’t block up the hall, for he who gets hurt will be he who has stalled’, as Bob Dylan once sang.

I appreciate that you’re not upset even though that’s not a consideration for me either way.

I will go on reminding you that Clinton won the popular vote by nearly 3 million. More people were compelled to vote for her than Trump.

I will also go on blaming Americans who didn’t vote for Hillary for why Trump is now president. The only alternative was Trump, they knew that, and for them to not do whatever was necessary, including holding their nose to vote for her to keep him out of the office, was in my view an unconscionable act of either complete selfishness or inexplicable stupidity or both. That’s my view of it.

Finally, let me suggest that you immediately stop saying 150 million people “did not feel impelled to vote for Hillary” as that is patently a strawman argument that at its best plays fast and loose with the data.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in November 2016, there were 224,059,000 citizens 18 and older.
– Of that, 157,596,000 were registered to vote.
– Of that, 137,537,000 voted.
– Of that, Clinton got almost 66 million to Trump’s 63 million, leaving the remainder to Johnson, Stein, and others.

Even with the most generous application of simple math, you get…..
224 million who could vote (forgetting for a moment that nearly 66 million aren’t even registered)
minus
138 million who did vote which
equals 86 million who could have voted for either candidate but didn’t. Again, 66 million of that 86 million aren’t even registered.

Being as generous as possible, 86 million is nowhere close to your purported 150 million unless, of course, you really want to abandon all logic and reason by adding in Trump’s 63 million.

Is that how you get to 149 million? If so, you must know that that’s completely and utterly ridiculous as it makes a case that is devoid of any intellectual honesty. Yes, 150 million people didn’t vote for Clinton. 66 million weren’t registered to vote at all, and 63 million voted for Trump. Are you really trying to make some sort of case that had she been a better candidate she would have beaten Trump by even more than the 3 million she already had beaten him by? Perhaps, but to go around saying, “….blaming the nearly 150 million people who did not feel impelled to vote for Hillary is missing the damn point,” is attempting to set the point at a place – 150 million – that makes no sense.

BTW, don’t take my word for it on the numbers. Download the data for yourself at https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/voting-and-registration/p20-580.html


(Here is my Comment which preceded the above and to which my partner in this conversation was responding.)

I don’t know if any of this will be helpful. I don’t know if I’ve just wasted an afternoon thinking this through, but here it is anyway.

I became a Democrat in 2015 for one reason; to vote for Bernie in the closed PA primary.

I am not a partisan. I’ve voted for Independents, Democrats, and Republicans in my life.

I don’t claim to speak as a Democrat or for Democrats. That said, here are my views on some of the thinking I’ve encountered here and pretty exclusively from people who seem to hate Hillary apparently so much that they were fine not voting for her knowing what the alternative was.

To put an even finer point on it, this really applies only to voters in a few battleground states. Sadly, third-party votes and not voting at all has no significant impact on elections in safely blue and red states.

1) Hillary’s “Coronation”
To my knowledge, the DNC did not restrict anyone from being a candidate. Biden could’ve run. Booker could’ve run. Warren could’ve run. They chose not to run.

Others besides Bernie did choose to run; former Governor of Maryland Martin O’Malley, former Governor of Rhode Island Lincoln Chafee, former Virginia Senator Jim Webb and my personal favorite, Harvard Law Professor Lawrence Lessig.

The only other one to get traction was Bernie who, like me, was NEVER A DEMOCRAT until it became convenient to do so.

It’s important to keep this point in mind. He and I and I suspect some reading this are Democrats of Convenience. To complain that the Party had a favorite is to deny the fact that Bernie and we were the party crashers demanding the party hosts do what we say.

Bernie took advantage of the Democratic Party process to register and run as a Democrat despite being Independent before (and again after) the primaries. It bears repeating. He was NOT a Democrat, but he ran as one.

Then he went and lost. By a lot.

According to his website and Senate.gov, he is back to being Independent.

C’est la vie, and so much for unifying and changing the Party from within, I guess.

Call it a coronation if it satisfies your conspiracy theory needs, but I think it’s far simpler than that. Sanders crashed the party, and the people already in the Party voted him out.

(Please save your conspiracy theories about debate schedules and emails, too. Those are empty arguments unless your Social Security eligible, don’t have Internet access, and don’t own a TV.)

2) Primary rigging
Anyone upset that hardcore and life-long Democrats inside and outside the Party’s inner workings would work against Bernie and for Hillary is refusing to admit some pretty basic human psychology.

Bernie was an outsider. To make matters worse, he ran as a Democrat but made attacking the Democratic Party – not just Hillary, the Party – a key part of his message. How was that supposed to work? How was that going to attract and appeal to people who had called themselves Democrats for years and decades?

Yes, Bernie had appeal especially for those who had not been very politically active and to those of us have been concerned for years about Big Money, campaign finance, and voters’ rights.

But, here’s the reality. Bernie lost by 3 million votes. 3 million out of a total of 30 million cast. That’s a lot of rigging.

Are people actually giving the DNC that much credit to pull off that scale of rigging and corruption? I’m not.

3) Bullying
Everyone is free to make their own decisions on Election Day. Two candidates had any reasonable chance of winning. Two. That’s the reality.

If you live in a battleground state, and if you call yourself a liberal or a progressive or a Democrat or some combination, AND you didn’t vote for Clinton knowing – and you simply cannot deny this knowing – that Trump was the only other candidate capable of winning, then this presidency is on you.

If you call that bullying or claim you were bullied, I’d love some details.

Seems that both the Hillary and Sanders camps want to claim the other bullied them. Some probably think that’s what I’m doing.

I think they are all wrong.

This isn’t bullying. It’s pointing out facts, and I don’t intend to ever stop reminding people of these facts.

If that makes you feel bullied or angry or uncomfortable or whatever, that’s not my intention and that’s really on you. I’m simply pointing out facts as I see them and know them.

4) Now what?
If as a California, New York, Florida, Texas or overseas voter you thought you were sending a message to the DNC by voting for Stein or not voting at all, I think you are sadly narcissistic.

The only message you sent was that you care more about ideological purity than you do about all the peoples who will be harmed by a Trump presidency.

Besides, the DNC isn’t trying to figure out how to win over some big percentage of a small total number of Stein voters and Johnson voters. That math does not work for them.

What they are doing is trying to figure out how to win back some small percentage of the voters they’ve won before in places like PA, WI, and MI. That’s what made the difference despite her winning the popular vote by almost 3 million.

(BTW, the argument that the 2016 election was some kind of “down year” is another false claim.)

In the final analysis no one cast your vote but you.

If posts like this upset you, ask yourself what it is that truly is upsetting you. Is it me reminding you that there are consequences to elections, because if it’s not that, I don’t know what it is that is upsetting you.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/12/29/2016-vs-2012-how-trumps-win-and-clintons-votes-stack-up-to-obama-and-romney/#85140cb1661e

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Hey, Liberals, we’ll need to get together soon

 

someone-please-tell-me

I get that we’re all still processing what happened, and some deplorable Trump supporters need to be thrown in jail right now, but I am wondering when we liberals will stop blaming one another and realize that, all in, we’re like 3% apart.

isidewith2016

 

So were the polls, apparently.

Take the time you all need to process, to grieve, and to muster the strength you know you have.

We have a lot of work to do, and the sooner we get to it, the better.

 

Bernie is right. Right now is not the time to be supporting a protest vote.

Bernie is right. Again.

“Right now is not the time to be supporting a protest vote.”
– Bernie Sanders

One-on-one with Bernie Sanders
One-on-one with Bernie Sanders

In my opinion, for anyone to accuse him of being a sell-out, or to now hold the view that they should no longer follow his advice, seems to me to be a possible marker for not really and truly understanding him, what he was and still is all about, what he’s still working for on our behalf, and the reality of how our political processes work.

I’m very much with Bernie on this issue of protest voting in this election cycle.

I agree with him on his support for Hillary.

It’s important to note that he’s not just saying that she’s the only alternative to Trump. It seems to me that he’s speaking pretty clearly and pretty directly in support of her and her positions on real issues.

Here’s what else he says. These excerpted comments come from an exchange which begins around the 5:50 mark if you don’t have time to watch all 9 minutes.

“Election days come and go….Change does not occur in a 2-week period or in a 6-month period. It is a constant struggle……..My goal is to get Secretary Clinton elected, but if you think I’m going to stop the day after, you’re wrong…..Then the goal is to mobilize the American people to make sure that Congress does the right thing….fulfills the platform that we wrote for the Democratic Party, which is the most progressive platform in the history of American politics.”

Is the Democratic Party as progressive as I would like? No. It never has been.

Is that platform and a Clinton presidency a real and meaningful step in the right direction? Yes, I think it is. It’s why, after 36 years as being registered Non-Partisan, I registered as a Democrat in this cycle. It was so that I could vote for Bernie in the closed PA primary.

Bernie was my first choice. He didn’t win. At this point, I think it’s a near-meaningless waste of energy and oxygen to continue to speculate, agonize, and complain over the reasons – real or imagined – for why he lost. It’s done. It can’t be changed. (And, please, spare me the orange jumpsuit predictions. After 35 or 40 years of relentless right-wing attacks, nothing has stuck. Maybe there’s a reason for that other than another layer of conspiracy.)

So, what I’m going to do in November is what Bernie is suggesting that we all do, and that is to vote for Clinton and to continue to advocate for progress toward a better world for everyone by supporting people down-ballot who share that vision.

Sanders has a vision I share. He’s also pragmatic about how and what it will take to realize that vision.

It will take longer than one election cycle.

As a Sanders supporter, if you cast a protest vote in November, you need to understand that Sanders sees it as I do. It’s a vote for Trump.

Your vote can make a statement, or it can make a difference.

It’s your choice.

When did Busters become Breitbart believers?

Dick MorrisA friend recently asked if I’ve watched or read Clinton Cash, Crisis of Character, or Armageddon: How Trump Can Beat Hillary

The answer is simple. I don’t pay attention to right-wing propaganda. What mystifies me is why such an intelligent, well-informed, and well-reasoned individual would.

Here’s the more detailed response. Feel free to copy and paste it as your response to your Buster friends who are asking you these same questions.

“In the meantime, did you see or read Clinton Cash yet?”

No, and I’m not planning to watch it. It’s right-wing propaganda just like Citizens United’s “Hillary: The Movie” was.

Why would I give a shit what another hit piece has to say, especially knowing it comes from the likes of Peter Franz Schweizer, a “right wing political consultant,” “president of the Government Accountability Institute (GAI) and a former William J. Casey Research Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution. He is also Breitbart News Senior Editor-at-Large.”

“How about Crisis of Character?”

No. Similar reason as above, and to wit:

“The book was denounced by the non-partisan Association of Former Agents of the United States Secret Service for making “security harder by eroding the trust between agents and the people they protect.”[2] Members of that Association also said that Byrne’s job and role at that time would not have given him the level of access that many of the book’s tales would be dependent upon.[2] Media Matters wrote that in places Byrnes’ account in the book stood in contradiction to his sworn testimony before the Independent Counsel during the Lewinsky scandal in 1998.[4]”

” Or former advisory to Clinton Dick Morris’ book, Armageddon.”

You mean the Dick Morris described below? No. Same reason. It’s right-wing bullshit that I can’t believe you’re buying into.
“Morris said that he would leave the United States if Hillary Clinton were elected president in 2008.[11]
“Morris was the strategist for Republican Christy Mihos’s campaign in the 2010 Massachusetts gubernatorial race[12] and supported Mitt Romney in 2012, predicting that he would achieve a landslide victory. Blogger Andrew Sullivan has named an annual award after Morris, given for “stunningly wrong political, social and cultural predictions.”[13] He has appeared in the past on the Fox News for political commentary, especially appearing on The O’Reilly Factor and Hannity.[14][15] After the 2012 election, Morris did not appear on Fox News for three months, and the network ultimately opted not to renew his contract.[16]”

UPDATE:

It’s worse than I thought…..

“Now he is the chief political commentator and correspondent for The National Enquirer.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/style/hillary-clinton-dick-morris-national-enquirer-donald-trump.html?_r=0

“How much smoke do you have to be surrounded by before you conclude there’s a fire?”

(To be clear, that’s my friend’s question to me. He knows that I was once a very vocal and active Sanders supporter who, like Bernie, now supports Hillary.)

I think you’re seeing fog, not smoke from a fire. What you call smoke, I call the intentional fog of propaganda and brainwashing. Repeat something enough times and people begin to believe it’s true. It’s how it works.
So, the answer to your question might be, “When it’s really smoke from a fire that some right-winger didn’t light.”

Here’s my only question to you (and to all the Busters who refuse to support Hillary):

When did you start becoming a fan and amplifier of this sort of propaganda?

And, please, don’t come back at me with some personal attack, ok?

I answered your questions as you asked. Now I’m asking you. Why do you trust these sources? Is it because they support the narrative you have about Clinton?

40 years in public life and nothing has stuck. After 40 years of trying, if there was even one ounce of ‘there’ there, wouldn’t something – anything – have stuck to her by now?

No, I am not saying she’s an innocent. Not by a long shot. Sadly, one doesn’t get to where she and Bill are and have been in American politics by being pure. What I am saying is that the entire weight of conservatism has been piled against her, and still no jumpsuit.

What bothers me most is watching some of my friends echoing right-wing propaganda.

 

#WWBD

To all of my fellow Sanders supporters, this ain’t the last election ever.

Cheer up, and start showing up for every election, from school board and town mayor to the president, and never vote for a Republican or their crazy cousins, the Libertarians.

Sad Sanders supporters

 

The lesson to be learned from this election is explained by Samantha Bee. This is probably the “most important” 7 minutes ever. (Watch the video. You’ll understand.)

 

If that lesson doesn’t sink in, watch part 2 here.

 

Like I’ve always said, if you don’t vote, you don’t get to bitch.

Ignore the Busters

Which brings me to how I plan to vote in November. I’m for Hillary now because Bernie has lost.

Making that decision known in certain online circles is akin to confessing to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby or being the second shooter on the grassy knoll.

It has resulted in former friends and fellow page admins resorting to calling me, “…a small man, cowering in the corner….”

 

BeTheWave name calling redacted

….as well as falsely accusing me of saying Sanders supporters are “losing their shit” – something I’ve never said – and being in support of a candidate that condones beating women to put them in their place, a statement that is patently false about Clinton and me.

BeTheWave slander redacted

(By the way, the video above never shows the Clinton supporter actually hitting the Sanders supporter with his cane, but if the left-wing Bill O’Reilly, Cenk Uygur, says it happened then it must be true. )

Where’s the Surprise Coming From?

Everyone gets to make their own decisions about what we think is right and best for America and ourselves, right? Isn’t that what the whole one-person-one-vote-kill-the-parties-and-superdelegates-and-electoral-college outrage is all about?

Well, in my view, that decision now leads me to support Hillary since Bernie is out. For that, I’m falsely accused of all sorts of irrational things.

Which brings me to this.

In my view, for the Busters to keep complaining about the nominating process and outcome isn’t helpful to them, to Bernie, or this country.

Look, I get it, and believe me, I’m not telling anyone what they can and can’t say. Remember me? I’m the guy the tyrants over at the current incarnation of the Coffee Party kicked out and wouldn’t allow to join again because I wouldn’t stay quiet about how they censor speech on their main Facebook page.

Stay angry and keeping fighting just as Lee Camp says. Just realize that it’s starting to sound more and more like sour grapes and childish whining, especially when some of you Sanders supporters call those of us who now support Clinton small and cowards and fans of violence just because we don’t agree with you.

 

It comes down to this simple truth. Bernie was not a Democrat until it became convenient for him to do so.

I can only shake my head in bewilderment over the outrage some of my fellow Sanders supporters still express over the idea that the DNC, the majority of rank-and-file Democrats, and the party apparatchiks all like Hillary better because……

SHE IS A LONG-TIME DEMOCRAT,
AND BERNIE NEVER WAS UNTIL IT SUITED HIS PURPOSES!

Who the eff did you think Democrats would prefer? You know, actual, card-carrying, been-here-all-along-where-the-eff-have-all-you-Busters-come-from-and-why-the-eff-should-we-turn-shit-over-to-you types of Democrats who make up the majority, yes majority, of…….wait for it…..the Democratic Party.

It’s their Party, not ours.

Seriously, whom did you think they’d prefer, one of their own or a usurper who would caucus with them but wouldn’t join them until it served his purposes?

Unwelcome Guests, Hero Worship, and Religion

Sanders supporters being mad at all things Democratic Party is like someone crashing your house party and then getting pissed off at you because you don’t let them move in and just take over.

So, yeah, I’m one of those Democrats of Convenience, too, just like Bernie. I registered after 36 years as Non-Partisan to Democratic so that I could vote for Sanders in the closed Pennsylvania primary. Their club, their rules.

Come November, like Bernie, I will vote for Hillary just like Bernie says he will because it appears to be the only logical and pragmatic thing left to do. It sucks, but that’s life sometimes. As Mick has sung for decades, you can’t always get what you want.

Super BernieSaint Bernard is not a superhero, he’s a politician with whom I happen to agree.

I don’t worship him as many of his more fervent followers appear to do. He’s not Superman or the Second Coming. All of this hero worshiping has gone from being admirable to fanciful to farcical.

It almost seems as if the Bernie or Busters behave in ways akin to religious zealots. They seem intent on turning “the revolution” into a religion with Bernie playing the role of their political L. Ron Hubbard.

That kind of thinking, in my view, is not a good thing.

So, barring some unforeseen set of circumstance, I’ll be voting for Hillary. As of today and according to RealClearPolitics, she beats Trump. With 4 months left to go, I can only see Trump doing more and more damage to himself, not less.

Yes, I’ll be promoting the idea that others join me in supporting Clinton, not because she’s my first choice, but because she’s the best choice left given how our politics operates.

If that makes me small or a coward in the eyes of some, all I can ask is WWBD?